Brainstorming thread for driving player engagement

You'll have to excuse me for the title that makes me sound like an HR rep at a bad company, but a couple other GMs and I were chatting about ideas for keeping players engaged and actually posting.

Personally I have had a long-running issue of struggling to keep my players regularly posting after the first year or so of my dark heresy campaign.

It's really frustrating because as a GM, I really am not here to roll for players, make decisions for them, IC characters, or nag players to get an action in. Once in a while, no harm no foul, but it seems this happens more often than we would like.

I understand that life gets in the way of gaming sometimes and really am sympathetic to that. But in that case I believe the player owes the GM at least a quick LINE message letting them know they are unable to post, and ideally giving a rough idea for when they may be free next. The bottom line is I put in too much effort as a GM to put up with AWOL players who aren't even cluing me in to when they may be able to post next.

Personally in my games I have been experimenting with narrative and mechanical consequences for being AWOL. You're not posting in combat? Well after 24 hours your character will probably lose their action. You're delaying the game with inaction? Well then you might come under fire whereas you otherwise would be safe.

The bottom line of the rule is that if you haven't posted in 24-48 hours or communicated that you are AFK when the action is on you and the GM has notified you that you are up, you are susceptible to narrative and mechanical consequences at the GM's discretion.

The nature of the consequences will depend on the situation and narrative, but all bets are off if you're not posting or letting the GM know you can't post.

Communication is important. It's ok if you can't post! But I don't want to sit around waiting for you to post when you're chilling on a beach in Grenada for the next 2 weeks.

Unfortunately even these relatively strict measures are not driving posts as I would like. It's gotten to the point where I am considering abruptly ending a 2.5 year game. Some other even more draconian measures I have considered are booting players from the game for repeated inactivity or severe delays on posting. I'm just sick of people half-assing the game.

Help and brainstorming wanted from other GMs and players as I know many of you have faced the same challenges.

I have quite a lot to say here. Its certainly very frustrating when games slow down and when this happens after a while I can feel my interest wain and whichever game less fun.

My time is short right now though so I'll start off with...

Any in-game consequences to a player of not posting shouldn't overly affect the other players. I'd find it immensely annoying if a few players missed an action or a number of actions which resulted in loosing combat or some other RP consequence that negatively affected others.

One more thing for now. Player engagement should start at the very beginning of joining a game. This has happened to me because I want (have a craving) to be in all of the games and you can over extend yourself. Every player on joinging a new game should ask themselves what would happen if they found their time squeezed? Would that mean one game to many?

I believe everyone should have some wriggle room with their time.

If you feel continually pressured to post you're probably in to many games. I've found when in this situation that feeling pressured means things aren't fun and you actually post even less.

This starts with players managing their time and being honest with themselves. This is really important as this is a group activity and one person/s not posting affects GMs/Players enjoyment.

This is a real issue for, I would assume, every game on here with the exception of Blades in the Dark. Like Bob said, I get the most annoyed/pissed when the problem keeps happening and there is little to no communication. Worse yet is when I am assured it won't happen again, and it keeps on happening. Let's break this down in a straight forward fashion.

The questions for GMs to address here then are:
- How do you address the issue?
- How do you penalize players who continually toe this line?
- How do you incentivize players to not do this in the first place?


I'll start.

1) How do you address the issue?

If the issue is bad enough with a single player, I try not to put them on front-street in front of the group. I like to address them privately to see what's going on; however, I also make my expectations clear not once, but at multiple intervals throughout play. Just like writing a syllabus, the game is a contract between players and GM. I lay out what my expectations are:
- check the forum/update narratives once per day if possible.
- If you have to be absent for more than a day/whatever, let me know. Don't need details, just be communicative so that no one is sitting and waiting on you. Respect gets respect.
- During combat time/initiative time, must have posts AT LEAST once/24 hrs. More is better.

Now, even as a GM, I haven't always been able to follow these rules because of real life, but you bet your ass my players knew about my absences before they happened.

2) How do you penalize players who continually toe this line?

In narrative gameplay, they lose any involvement in the scene, which can include losing PC/NPC interaction opportunities that could help the story/team as a whole, and it potentially means losing out on situations that could earn XP. In initiative time, it means losing a turn(s).
- I am a huge proponent of shame. If player or players aren't stepping up, I like to remind the entire group of their responsibilities as players. The group will always punish the weakest link. Well, not always, but often.
- I have killed off PCs for players who have just disappeared without a word. No time nor patience for that shit. At least this way it can be used as a tool to drive the narrative, make an enemy more hated, put on full display the dangerous nature of the setting, etc. etc.
- XP penalties for lack of posts/not accomplishing as much as a result as the other PCs.

3) How do you incentivize players to not do this in the first place?

I love incentives to gameplay. XP is always fun, but I like giving out random gifts/items/homebrewed this or that for random holidays and especially good roleplaying. My biggest pet peeve outside of lack of communication, is lack of care/depth in posts. I mean, this is PbP after all; people have a chance here to dive into their characters like no other RPG medium allows. Hollow, half assed posts drive me up the wall.
- XP Rewards for exceptional roleplay
- Narrative/Item Rewards for players who go above and beyond, making connections with NPCs, thinking and playing outside of the box, or actually developing their character.
- XP Rewards for playing to a characters' weaknesses. This discourages min-maxers/gamist players who never risk anything by always playing it safe. Fuck that. Make this shit exciting.


I am sure there is more, but I will stop there. Leave it open for others to piggy back off of.

Iron and Metal wrote:

This is a real issue for, I would assume, every game on here with the exception of Blades in the Dark.

I might be biased but I'd add Vortex to that list. Do to its decentralized nature it's easy enough for me as the GM to not worry about a players update being missed. It doesn't slow down anyone else it only slows them down and with warp time dilation fuckery as a fictional tool it's easy to get away with. However, this comes from the niche single player like sandbox I'm running with that game.

1) How do you address the issue?

I do run games other games in a more traditional sense than Vortex though. Lot of my methods apply to both.

- Start off with expectations and basically an online session 0 (mission/campaign premise, character creation, etc.). Already getting people involved with OOC stuff is a good way to see who is really committed to the game. I've weeded out people with just that session 0. If they aren't going to participate in that to a reasonable degree then they aren't going to participate in the actual game.  
- Communication! If something is going on that keeps you from posting tell me. No details needed if you don't want to (however I find most do like to provide context). All my players know they can get in touch with me either by outside communication methods (like LINE) or using built in tools from the forum (PM).
- My update schedule is probably a little slower than most here. I'm a weekly guy especially for Vortex. My other game (not hosted here) is the same until it comes down to combat which picks up the pace but that's all done OOC and outside the IC thread for the game. So that leaves more than enough time for anyone to get a post in. Don't care if it comes in right after I post the update or a hour or two before I update.
- Then there's just luck. Getting committed players isn't easy. Really, they are a rare breed in an online environment. I've had some really good luck getting a good core of committed players for my games. I haven't inquired on why my players are committed the way they are.

2) How do you penalize players who continually toe this line?

This is for Vortex. So this needs to taken with a grain of salt as this doesn't apply to traditional single party games.

I run a three strike rule. Miss the first update with no reason. It's a gimme. Second time? I'm going to ask what's up. Get a response than great. No response and they miss the third update? Quick swift boot and I send a message describing why. Now say I got a response and the players misses that third update? Time for a private chat to see if they can or want to continue playing the game. No shame in saying you can't or don't want to continue. Doesn't hurt my feelings at all. However if they do then they need to get a post in before the next update. If that is missed then they're out. I have not time to play around and I can easily open the game up to someone who can commit their time and efforts to the game.

For my other game (which is the Infinity RPG ran on the Infinity miniature game forum) I haven't had to do this except for one case. That case being a person dropping off the face of the earth (I have some theories based on previous posts but he's disappeared from the internet). I've simply just taken over that character as an NPC. Not a bother to me and they're not a GM PC. That character has taken a backseat to everyone else.

3) How do you incentivize players to not do this in the first place?

I'd like to say I have something concrete but I don't.

I do XP, rewards, and mechanical stuff in game (re-rolls, bonuses, etc.) for good roleplay. However, I don't know if those are incentives to keep players committed. It might help but I don't think it's a main driving force (for me as a player they aren't).

Me as a GM I try to keep consistent with my updating. If I expect that from my players they should expect that from me as a GM. I communicate when an update is happening and inform if those plans change.

I can list out what makes me committed to a game from my own perspective as a player:

- I love me some good world building and especially those that gives me a chance to interact with it or comment on it. Same goes for a well crafted scene description. It adds a lot for a player. I personally know those are lots of work for GMs and you don't have to do it all the time but it is appreciated.
- Work with the players. Don't bash heads over something. Compromise on stuff. The GM might be the great dictator but if the players wanna try to do something help them out on how they could accomplish it. However, keep consequences attached to those as well.
- Consistent updates. I'm lenient on this if I know what's up but if I'm left in the dark and a GM is all over the place with updates then that really wears on me. Two weeks to get an update in with no word? Sheesh. Then you go into rapid fire mode with an update a day and skip over players that aren't keeping up. Pick a schedule and stick to it.
- Spotlight sharing. Give people time to shine. Even better if you have a player willing to forcefully pass that light around instead of hogging it.
- Time to interact with the world. It's nice to get moving forward on a mission but leave breathing room for players to explore the world. This is where you get into the crux of roleplaying and helps to get me more committed. I want to know more. I want to explore more. I want to know what my character can do with it.

Iron and Metal wrote:

My biggest pet peeve outside of lack of communication, is lack of care/depth in posts. I mean, this is PbP after all; people have a chance here to dive into their characters like no other RPG medium allows. Hollow, half assed posts drive me up the wall.

Biggest pet peeve here as well. Doesn't need to be super introspective or a chapter from a novel but even a little depth goes along way. Getting a peek at the character emotionally or even background wise adds a lot. This goes for dialogue and descriptions.

Carnelian wrote:

Any in-game consequences to a player of not posting shouldn't overly affect the other players. I'd find it immensely annoying if a few players missed an action or a number of actions which resulted in loosing combat or some other RP consequence that negatively affected others.

While I mostly agree, nothing is more frustrating to me than a player who conveniently has time for IC posts when they are most valuable to the party (or when theyre about to lose an action in combat) but are nowhere to be found for IC posts otherwise. Its kind of annoying when a character feels like they are only "on screen" to use their valuable skills and then disappears whenever they can't flex their max'ed stats or abilities.

Carnelian wrote:

One more thing for now. Player engagement should start at the very beginning of joining a game. This has happened to me because I want (have a craving) to be in all of the games and you can over extend yourself. Every player on joinging a new game should ask themselves what would happen if they found their time squeezed? Would that mean one game to many?

I believe everyone should have some wriggle room with their time.

If you feel continually pressured to post you're probably in to many games. I've found when in this situation that feeling pressured means things aren't fun and you actually post even less.

This starts with players managing their time and being honest with themselves. This is really important as this is a group activity and one person/s not posting affects GMs/Players enjoyment.

Strong agree here. The problem is getting some players to wrap their head around that, and commit to it.

Definitely agree with everything Jeff and Solo wrote as well. I've still been thinking about this a lot, even though my own posting with my back issues has been slow. I plan on continued experiment with penalizing inaction (losing actions and opportunities) and rewarding frequent activity (more xp and more rewards).

I am afraid I will piss people off, but personally at this point the next options I'm considering are booting players or ending games, so if people get pissy or quit, that's really the least of my worries in the big scheme of things. If I'm penalizing someone or not giving them XP the fact of the matter is that they're probably not an excellent fit for the game anyway and I won't terribly miss them, to be totally honest.

Something I need to remember is that not every GM or game on this site is a good fit for every player, and vice versa. I think addressing this issue starts with recognizing and accepting that's just how it goes. Doesn't mean anyone is wrong or right. But wanting and expecting different things from our RPGs is just par for the course with the hobby, and sometimes those differences will be incompatible. And much like a romantic relationship, it's best to rip off the band-aid once you realize it's a poor fit as opposed to dragging it out because you're worried someone will start crying and it'll be awkward lol.

bobarctor1977 wrote:

While I mostly agree, nothing is more frustrating to me than a player who conveniently has time for IC posts when they are most valuable to the party (or when theyre about to lose an action in combat) but are nowhere to be found for IC posts otherwise. Its kind of annoying when a character feels like they are only "on screen" to use their valuable skills and then disappears whenever they can't flex their max'ed stats or abilities.

Some players have a lack of agency or initiative to do something when they not forced or its not their turn. I've seen it in real life and online. Some people have to be heavily prodded or bashed up side the head to get them to interact when it's not their turn. Part of this might be a lack of understanding of who their character is and they don't know how to insert them in situations where they aren't in the spotlight. Others might simply not care and only want to act when they get to shine. Which is mostly just poor roleplaying and stinks of video game RP logic where they are the center of attention and when they aren't they tune out or remove themselves. It can be a fight to get those types to break out of that and take initiative to interact when they're not the star of the show.

bobarctor1977 wrote:

I am afraid I will piss people off, but personally at this point the next options I'm considering are booting players or ending games, so if people get pissy or quit, that's really the least of my worries in the big scheme of things. If I'm penalizing someone or not giving them XP the fact of the matter is that they're probably not an excellent fit for the game anyway and I won't terribly miss them, to be totally honest.

Something I need to remember is that not every GM or game on this site is a good fit for every player, and vice versa. I think addressing this issue starts with recognizing and accepting that's just how it goes. Doesn't mean anyone is wrong or right. But wanting and expecting different things from our RPGs is just par for the course with the hobby, and sometimes those differences will be incompatible. And much like a romantic relationship, it's best to rip off the band-aid once you realize it's a poor fit as opposed to dragging it out because you're worried someone will start crying and it'll be awkward lol.

GMs are here to have fun too. When its not fun its time to shake it up. Booting players for justifiable reasons and trying to find those that fit what you're trying to do is totally fine in my book. There's no need to make it un-fun for yourself.

Your relationship analogy is apt. Sometimes it doesn't work out and that's okay. Best not drag it out and just get it over with. No hard feelings. Just what it is.

1) How do you address the issue:
I prod players via LINE and if need be I roll during a battle. otherwise they lose any RP opportunities. This may be more important to some, and less to others. But, this is an rpg, and the PbP format means the rp is especially more important. Irl games tend to become math hammer and power gaming, but here its about the stories more and the power gaming less. Embrace this aspect of the PbP format!

2)How do you penalize players?
Ive straight killed off Pc's who've disappeared. Its a shame as every PC is an opportunity to expand the story and personalize it for everyone. I hate doing it, as I really do try to engage every character in the games I run and give them each their own side story.

3)How do you incentivize players:
The most obvious choice is xp. But I dislike a large xp gap between players, especially the ones who started at the same time. There shouldn't be an excuse for this. I check the forums almost every day, and though my schedule as of late is touch and go, i've informed everyone of the issues multiple times. The community seems to understand. So how else can we provide incentives? In some games there are tangible rewards: gear, money, bonuses on rolls (I like this one) for good RP. In my deathwatch game I like the idea of personal goals for every player, long term goals that they can build up too. There is also an honors system I would like to utilize more often. As Ive applied a sequential series of missions (one flows into the next), and not simply "episodes" this is not always achievable in the setting, but its something I hope to use more. There is also the assets system which is hardly used, but Ive opened up those options in my last mission as those relationships were built on in the last mission.
I know my examples are limited to the deathwatch game, but there are opportunities in all games. in Dark heresy (2nd ed) there is a stealth vs force aspect i haven't seen utilized. IN fantasy settings there are advantage/disadvantage bonuses, opening of prestige classes, ect. We just have to look for these ways to reward the players outside of the typical Xp bonus, not that that's wrong.

Solo wrote:

Others might simply not care and only want to act when they get to shine. Which is mostly just poor roleplaying and stinks of video game RP logic where they are the center of attention and when they aren't they tune out or remove themselves. It can be a fight to get those types to break out of that and take initiative to interact when they're not the star of the show.

This was exceptionally spot on. Some players really have a hard time code-switching from their experiences and expectations based on video games to the RPG, pen and paper (keyboard and screen) modality. I am not a psychologist, but I see the worst of this as a reflection of not being open to being vulnerable. In other words, terror that something "bad" might happen to a PC, knowing that there is no "start from previous save" option.

Syl wrote:

The most obvious choice is xp. But I dislike a large xp gap between players, especially the ones who started at the same time.

Yeah, dude, but if there are those big discrepancies, that is 100% the fault of the player. Granted, it can hurt party and encounter balance, but you can't expect to be awesome and experienced if you aren't being awesome and earning experience. I say if the discrepancy becomes too large, the player needs to be booted. That should be evidence of their lack of commitment.

Syl wrote:

In my deathwatch game I like the idea of personal goals for every player, long term goals that they can build up too.

I think the first time I came across this was in Solo's Vortex game, and have since come to see it as a must have in games. It forces the players to engage with and articulate their character's motivations, hatreds, alliances, etc. and thus gives them a looming incentive to partake in roleplay that will advance them. So, it isn't just about XP, which is obvious, but it is also tangible in that it shapes the game world as well. Can't say enough good things about this one.

The biggest problem I have seen with it is players who post really vague goals. "Do this thing sometime." Bob forced his players to quantify their goals as to make them achievable, and I have done the same. Vague goals don't earn shit.

Solodice wrote:

Some players have a lack of agency or initiative to do something when they not forced or its not their turn. I've seen it in real life and online. Some people have to be heavily prodded or bashed up side the head to get them to interact when it's not their turn. Part of this might be a lack of understanding of who their character is and they don't know how to insert them in situations where they aren't in the spotlight. Others might simply not care and only want to act when they get to shine. Which is mostly just poor roleplaying and stinks of video game RP logic where they are the center of attention and when they aren't they tune out or remove themselves. It can be a fight to get those types to break out of that and take initiative to interact when they're not the star of the show.

I 100% agree with all of this - I think the thing for me is that it drains me and leads me to feel burnt out when I have to prod, bash, or "fight" to get players to post or RP better lol.

I'm not some RPG coach or therapist. I recognize that sometimes I'm the best person to get a player to post more often or drop higher quality posts, but frankly it's not just how I want to spend my limited time and energy. I'm not here to hold anyones hand. Maybe that's on me, maybe some will fault me as a GM for that, but I recognize it as the reality of the situation.

I'll make comments here and there, but I just don't have it in me to continually badger players to post more or post more in-depth when I'm already fighting to find time to update my games and build an interesting world/story that keeps people entertained. Especially when the reality is that oftentimes, my efforts will amount to zero change in the quality or frequency of the players' posts.

bobarctor1977 wrote:

I'm not some RPG coach or therapist. I recognize that sometimes I'm the best person to get a player to post more often or drop higher quality posts, but frankly it's not just how I want to spend my limited time and energy. I'm not here to hold anyones hand. Maybe that's on me, maybe some will fault me as a GM for that, but I recognize it as the reality of the situation.

I feel this, its not your job to constantly hound players. I've quit a game on here I really enjoyed running because to many were infrequent posters and it destroyed my enjoyment of the game.

Whatever carrot a GM might dangle its up to the players to be honest with themselves and informing the GM they'll be absent for a few days, a week or whatever. It literally takes no effort to jump on your phone, thumb the LINE app and say "I'm super busy with life, will get to it in X days."

One thing a GM could do when they start a game up is challenge a player who wants to join who is already in a lot of games. Do you have the time? What if you jobs gets a little more busy, will you still have time? The player is committing their time to you and the other players when they join a game and some contingency should be built in. I for one am guilty of this in the past.

Iron and Metal wrote:

The questions for GMs to address here then are:
- How do you address the issue?
- How do you penalize players who continually toe this line?
- How do you incentivize players to not do this in the first place?

How do you address the issue?

I don't often GM games in the same style as this forum has, my games while still being play by post tend to be on Discord so the preferences and ideas for how to deal with these things have been shaped by that environment a bit, I think.
That being said, I am a strong believer in not punishing players for inactivity or ghosting or anything else along those lines. This is especially true for me if the punishments imposed are things like losing out on XP or getting their character punished narratively for the actions of the player. While I think it's entirely possible for those punishments to work as a way to force a player back into the game, I think it's much more likely that the result will be the player having LESS desire to play more and get back into the game.

If a player was already losing interest in the game, or running low on time to play, or any other reason for their inactivity, the desire to return to that game after their character gets put in a really bad spot, or they get behind the other players on XP will be pretty darn low. Why would you want to force yourself to play in a game where you're now at a disadvantage?

So my solution when this occurs is generally a system of two warnings. I am willing to put a game on hold to wait for a player that is inactive so long as that inactivity is addressed beforehand. But if a player does so without telling anyone, that is their first warning. I will message them privately, ask what's going on and why they haven't posted, and then tell them that we've put the game on hold for X days or weeks or whatever else seems fair and that if they dont post by that deadline we will simply move forward without them. The character isn't punished and stays with the group and continues to earn EXP, sometimes they act as an NPC and other times they are just a ghost in the background until the player returns.

If the absence continues they get a second warning as the game moves on without them, and if they don't respond to that or start posting again then they are simply removed from the game. It's a low tolerance policy for players that don't communicate, but I feel like that's what is needed for games to not flounder and die because of one players inactivity.

How do you penalize players who continually toe this line?

I don't. As said above, they are either communicating and thus I am very willing to be lenient and allow time (to a point, of course) but the moment that communication falls away they are given their two warnings and then booted from the game.

Also as mentioned above I really do think that any punishment to the player that isn't just removal from the game is only going to make them want to play less rather than encourage them to return and play more.

How do you incentivize players to not do this in the first place?

While it wouldn't work as well on this forum due to how things seem to be set up, I think players being involved in the selection of the system being played and the world/setting/campaign style that the game will use is an excellent way to get players engaged and excited to play, and usually that excitement will continue throughout the length of a campaign in my experience. On here players are selecting the games and worlds and systems that they want to join thanks to the way joining games works, so I do think that aspect of things is covered pretty well even though they have little direct control over any of those aspects. Still, if there is a way to increase that control (perhaps with backstory information being used in-game as story beats) then I think it would positively encourage players to keep playing.

Keeping open communication with the group and being honest about responsibilities and things that take time away from the game is also important. If the players feel like they can safely explain why they can't post and that they won't be punished for it then they are much more likely to tell everyone what's going on, ask for some time, and then return when things are resolved.

As a few others have said, I think it's also a really good idea to ensure players aren't in too many games. This is as much on the player as it is on the GM. If you as a GM think that however many games the player is in (two, three, four, etc) is too many for them to pay complete attention and respect to your game, then it's absolutely fair to not let them join.

And of course there's always the classic rewards for participation. XP for playing your character well, pursuing goals, and other activities that require participation in the game.